Curse

Bront · Apr 24, 2008, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Current build:

[build name="Bront's MM Bomber" prof=N/Mo Dea=12+3+1 Sou=8+1 Pro=10][Jagged Bones][Animate Bone Minions][Death Nova][Blood of the Master][Putrid Bile][Aegis][extinguish][Signet of Lost Souls][/build]

[build name="Bront's SS Necro Feaster" prof=N/Rt Cur=11+1+1 Sou=10+1 Res=10][Spiteful Spirit][Barbs][Mark of Pain][Enfeebling Blood][Vengeful Weapon][Mend Body and Soul][Signet of Lost Souls][Death Pact Signet][/build]

[build name="Bront's Interupt Mesmer" prof=Me/rt Dom=12+1+1 Fas=10+1 Ins=8+1 res=2][CoF][Power Lock][Power Spike][Power Drain][Hex Eater Signet][Empathy][Mantra of Recovery][Death pact signet][/build]

General Counters/Problems:
Caster hate could slow it down, but the Mesmer can function in caster hate fairly well, enough to give the necros some breathing room

There isn't a lot of healing on these three, but if you're in an area with more than 4, take the monk henchies for healing. If you're in a 4 man area, you may want to swap out one for a healer, or use the 4 man build and bring a self-heal.

With no corpses, the MM Isn't particularly effective outside of exploiting party corpses. Replacing him with a physical to work with the SS's Barbs and Mark of Pain might be effective.

Haven't found too many others so far.

For a 4 man team, try this:
[build name="Bront's MM Bomber" prof=N/Mo Dea=12+3+1 Sou=8+1 Pro=10][Jagged Bones][Animate Bone Minions][Death Nova][Blood of the Master][Putrid Bile][Aegis][Extinguish][Signet of Lost Souls][/build]

[build name="Bront's SS Necro Feaster" prof=N/Rt Cur=11+1+1 Sou=10+1 Res=10][Spiteful Spirit][Mark of Pain][Enfeebling Blood][Foul Feast][Vengeful Weapon][Mend Body and Soul][Signet of Lost Souls][Death Pact Signet][/build]

[build name="Bront's Interupt Mesmer" prof=Me/Rt Dom=12+1+1 Fas=10+1 Ins=8+1][CoF][Power Lock][Power Spike][Power Drain][Hex Eater Signet][Ether Feast][Mantra of Recovery][Death Pact Signet][/build]

Make sure you take a self-heal as well. If you're able to heal the party (necro running n/rt resto, monk, rt healer, or possibly paragon), you can use the original group, or go with this. I need to fool around with the 4 man team a bit more.

This 4 man build is not likely to work in corpseless 4 man areas.

credits:
Besides myself, Antithesis, Sab, Darkspirit, and draugr provided inspiration or help with the build. Thanks to them and anyone else in this thread for giving feedback.

Quote:

Originally Posted by origional

Spawned from this thread.

Ok, I tested this this morning

For reference...
[build name="Bront's MM Bomber" prof=N/Mo Dea=12+3+1 Sou=8+1 Pro=10][Jagged Bones][Animate Bone Minions][Death Nova][Blood of the Master][Putrid Bile][Protective Spirit][Aegis][Signet of Lost Souls][/build]

[build name="Bront's SS Necro Feaster" prof=N/Rt Cur=12+1+1 Sou=12+1][Spiteful Spirit][Barbs][Mark of Pain][Enfeebling Blood][Foul Feast][Plague Sending][Signet of Lost Souls][Death Pact Signet][/build]

[build name="Bront's Interupt Mesmer" prof=Me/Mo Dom=12+1+1 Fas=10+1 Ins=8+1][CoF][Power Lock][Power Spike][Power Drain][Hex Eater Signet][Epidemic][Mantra of Recovery][Vengeance][/build]

Tore stuff up.

I did the Lab Space/Elusive Golemancer missions (and yes, bringing an MM on that wasn't great...), getting there was easy. I actually got disconnected and had to reconnect, and without me (hybred monk), my team tore up 20+ mobs who wandered into us. Admittedly, it was Normal Mode, but there we were trearing though mobs in seconds, and taking almost no damage unless there were 4 or more in the group. (There were regularly times when I could take my hand off they keyboard and just wand as a monk).

I watched all 3 bars, with this build, none of the heroes dropped below 10 energy. The necros have SR, and the Signet to help mitigate that, and Gwen gets all kinds of energy from Power Drain and Hex Eater. Conditions were rarely around long, and regularly showed up on the opponents, which was particularly useful for deep wound. Physicals ran into Aegis from the MM, were weakened, and likely killed themselves with SS, along with the barbs and Mark of pain, (minions helped when I had them). Casters were blocked by the Gwen and occasionally Zho, hexes melted away with Hex Eater, and other damage mitigated by the minions, as well as me being a Hybred Monk.

I was suprised how well this team dealt with caster hate. The Windrider groups were simple (even with no minions). Gwen can occasionaly interupt an interupt, mitigated the hexes, and it only takes getting SS, Mark, or Barbs off once to start the damage flowing from the SS side.

I brought along Zho for extra interuption and physical damage, Lina for protection (found she works better than Menhlo with my monk), Cynn for some elemental firepower, and Devona for physcial damage and KD.

I'm going to try a 4 man area to vanquish and see how it goes, and keep on trying other stuff.

I'm thinking of being origional, and calling it Brontway

(sarcasm here, if the smiley wasn't enough of a clue)

Do want to say thanks for those who helped with it, it's obviously not wholely my idea, and had input from you folks.

The big weaknesses I see on this team, is that with not lot of spreadable healing. This isn't an issue in 8 man teams, as you can take other henchies, or players/heroes. In 4 man teams, Options to fix this include putting Vengful Weapon and another RT heal on the SS, putting a heal on the Mesmer (Heal Party instead of Epidemic might work), or putting a self-heal on the mesmer, taking your own self-heal, and just watching your back. Obviously, Monk players can simply provide the healing themselves and run this with little change.

War My Guild · Apr 24, 2008, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Interesting to see that the builds work well! I'm going to try it out tomorow, but from your description it seems to work fine

This 'Brontway' has the interrupts and hex removal that Sab's lacks. The only thing I could see as a problem is the healing. But heck, I'm a monk, so I could take it

Oh and what exactly were you running as the monk?

And with vengeance, why exactly? Wouldn't DPS or even a monk ressurect be a better choice?

Bront · Apr 24, 2008, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by War My Guild

Interesting to see that the builds work well! I'm going to try it out tomorow, but from your description it seems to work fine

This 'Brontway' has the interrupts and hex removal that Sab's lacks. The only thing I could see as a problem is the healing. But heck, I'm a monk, so I could take it

Oh and what exactly were you running as the monk?

And with vengeance, why exactly? Wouldn't DPS or even a monk ressurect be a better choice?

The monk bar I run,
[patient spirit][woh][rof][Shield of Absorption][guardian][Spirit Bond][mend condition][cure hex]

Fairly standard. Mend condition and cure hex are mostly used as alternitive heals, particularly with the condition and hex removal of this build set. The protections can be swaped out as needed. I could probably drop Mend Condition, add in GoLE,, and swap guardian for either Aegis or Protective Spirit.

Again, it's your bar, so go nuts, but that works well for me.

As for vengance, a mesmer fast casting vengance means 2.5 seconds after a death, that member pops right back up, with full health and energy, no extra DP (at least if/when they die again), and a health bonus. Sure, they only stay up for 30 seconds, but ideally you should either be able to turn the tide or finish off your opponent in that length of time.

It doesn't look great, but it's surprisingly effective. However, you're welcome to swap it out for DPS if you want. The SS necro has DPS though, which means as long as one of those 2 survive, you have a hard res. The mesmer can res the SS necro with Vengance, and the SS can raise everone ele (or at least enough people).

In a 4 man group, I'd take a hard res on my own character as well (or a soft res that I'd save for the Necro), or swap it out for DPS, otherwise you can't permanently raise the SS necro (which is amusing). In a 6 or 8 man group, you'll have the Henchie healer.

And yeah, healing is an issue if you can't do it, but a player Paragon, Necro, Rt, or Monk should be able to take up the mantle of party healer, and if not, I mentioned alternatives to the SS necro to add extra healing into the picture (Swaping out 2 skills for Vengful Weapon and other RT heal, and specing a bit into Restoration)

Coloneh · Apr 24, 2008, 03:58 AM // 03:58

I dont see anything new... there is much less synergy than sabway, and the only real synergy (the bomber and the MoP/Barbs) is straight from sabway... nothing new. and the mesmer is just kinda useless,no point in a skillbar full of interrupts in PvE, one or two get the job done. If you were looking for total shutdown a BHA would do it better. the foul fest + plague sending combo really looks like a waste of bar space too.

this will get the job done in normal mode, but it really dosnt have the synergy or power of sabway or Paraway.

Mickey · Apr 24, 2008, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

I dont see anything new... there is much less synergy than sabway, and the only real synergy (the bomber and the MoP/Barbs) is straight from sabway... nothing new. and the mesmer is just kinda useless,no point in a skillbar full of interrupts in PvE, one or two get the job done. If you were looking for total shutdown a BHA would do it better. the foul fest + plague sending combo really looks like a waste of bar space too.

this will get the job done in normal mode, but it really dosnt have the synergy or power of sabway or Paraway.

Someone needs to make a Dervway, or a Sinway, cept the AI on both of those suck.

shru · Apr 24, 2008, 04:04 AM // 04:04

Looks like standard jagged bomber and imba curses made famous by Sab, with the exclusion of, IMO, the best part of sab's build, the N/RT healer. (this does happen to pretty much be what I run atm with the difference of mm running the important curse skills to drop the SS in favor of the N/RT) While this may work as is while plating a prumary healer, I recomend making the mm bomber a curses hybrid, bringing back the N/RT, and keeping the mesmer. (I'll post builds when I get back on my comp)
Overall, it's nothing groundbreaking, but is most definately a powerful hero setup. TY for posting it, but I don't think it's original enough to be "Brontway".

Bront · Apr 24, 2008, 06:21 AM // 06:21

It spawned from another thread, I had it split off by a nice mod because I didn't want to bogart his thread.

It's not quite the Sabway MM or SS, though it is close. The MM uses Putred Bile over Foul Feast, and the SS build is a bit different, missing reckless haste, and something else skills for Foul Feast.

I've not had good experiences with BHA heroes. They end up running short on energy regularly, and I find things don't get interupted. I noticed regular interupts with the Memser, no energy problems, and you're missing the plague sending and epidemic synergy. This also adds hex removal and interupts where there were none.

And yes, "Brontway" was mostly a sarcastic comment. I edited to note that more. A few people liked it, and it's been shredding stuff so far, so we'll see how well it work. It's been a fantastic compliment to my monk so far. I did get feedback from several other people, so I won't take whole credit for it, but I did put it togeather based on successful builds I'd used and input from others.

Antithesis · Apr 24, 2008, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Dude you might want to give credit where credit's due and acknowledge both Sab and DarkSpirit because every build is a minor variant of their originals (we call the Necs Sabway given he (she?) did compile the build for PvE although it's origins are in HA).

A BHA can manage it's energy quite easily when [[weaken armor] is combined with [[body shot]. I'd take a BHA with a Physical group (Rac's) and a Mesmer with casters (Sab's).

Bront · Apr 24, 2008, 06:42 AM // 06:42

Yeah, I'll note that

Still want to test it out more in HM, but it was quite effective even gimped in a no-corpse area.

Bront · Apr 26, 2008, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Did some more testing.

This build seems a bit fragile initially against physicals until it gets a few minions rolling. Against casters, it's quick and deadly.

So, it looks like this is more an location by location alternative as opposed to a good roll over everything build (which is fine). I didn't get a chance to try it in HM in 4 man areas much, still seems like it might be useful in tough Grawl areas.

Anyone else have any experience with it?

draugr · Apr 26, 2008, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Your build looks to be highly defensive in nature, not a bad thing. A few things to watch and consider:

You are using a standard sabway MM/prot hybrid on your top hero, as I did, for several months. Even with SR, I found that this taxed the MM's pool such that minions were sometimes not raised as quickly as possible, cutting into the bombing/killing power. In areas where defense is not as high a priority, consider disabling prot spirit and aegis and microing them yourself, or better, exchange for less expensive prots. I've never been happy with the way the AI manages [protective spirit], often finding it cast on me (also playing a healer like you) at the end of battles. Eventually, I dropped the prot component of the MM for more offense.

You want the MM using those three key skills over and over, and balancing the remaining slots is tough. [rising bile] is good, as is [putrid explosion] in corpse rich areas. As you know, I went the ranger route with a pet and [savage shot]. There are many alternatives, but this is the toughest hero to get use out of the remaining slots. Any slots on that bar should be passive or low nrg and fast cast so as not to detract from minion bombing.

On the second hero, since there is already so much healing in the build, you might consider switching out [plague sending] for [weaken armor], which buffed is a very powerful skill now, especially with the armor levels on many mobs. It is cheap and the AI uses it well. Of course watch the bar and see exactly how many conditions are being sent away with your condition management engine. I haven't had luck with heroes using combos like [foul feast] and [plague sending] correctly. Maybe your experience will be different.

Be very careful with death pact signet. Consider running it disabled, sorry if you said you do and I missed that. Nerfed, it's a long four second cast, and can result in bad things as mobs will often spike a recently ressed character. Use with caution as you already have the res on the mes. On your more recent build, consider replacing it with weaken armor, keeping vengeful, and going without a res on that toon. As a human monk, also consider dropping mend from the curse bar and add [reckless haste], [insidious parasite], or [chilblains].

On the mesmer, you might try replacing [power lock] with [empathy] for more damage, as most mobs attack cheerfully through hexes, even casters.

Overall, for tough areas, the build should hold up fine, but remember sometimes the best defense is a good offense and you might want to consider more killing power. Best wishes with the build.

Snype · Apr 26, 2008, 07:35 PM // 19:35

I agree with the others that the mesmer seems out of place here.

Personally, I use 2 necro heroes (with mixes of sabway included) and a mesmer hero. However, being myself a mesmer as well, having Gwen around allows me to create a lot of synergy. As the 2 necros are looking at the big picture by creating minions (aoe damage with death nova), spreading weakness around, and spreading Spiteful Spirit, me and my mesmer are taking down single targets. I setup myself as an Assassin's Promise mesmer with painful, phantom pain, and shatter delusions, and I setup Gwen with shatter delusions, shrinking armor, and utility interupts, as well as vengeance. This way, I can target individual enemies and take them down in seconds while the necros provide extra aoe damage to surrounding enemies.

Chthon · Apr 26, 2008, 09:32 PM // 21:32

1. If the goal of Foul Feast is robust condition removal, you'd be better off moving it to the MB and adding infuse condition. The 10% sacs on plague sending are going to get prohibitively expensive if there's serious condition cleaning to be done. (I'd also worry about the AI self-owning with it.)

2. Loss of reckless haste on the SS is noticeable. And, unless you're transferring goodies like blind or dazed, the plague sending adds less shutdown than reckless haste would.

3. The mesmer is meh (-zmer).

4. @ Coloneh: While I agree that this setup doesn't add anything to Sabway, the minions+MoP+Barbs combo is much, much older than Sabway. Also, where exactly are these other synergies in Sabway? Aside from using the MB to provide energy for the third hero, I don't see any of Sabway's synergies missing here. Obviously, the entire healer functionality is missing, but the only real synergy I recall that build having with the others was being a necro primary.

Bront · Apr 27, 2008, 08:27 AM // 08:27

I've found Foul Feast with Plague Sending works quite well, but shouldn't be the only condition removal you rely on. The SS necro does shift in health a bit, but nothing a simple and watchful healer can't deal with. It does make her fragile though. Some health runes and insignias would be usefull here (Yes, sac is %, but you still have more). I don't have any at the moment on my test subject.

Reckless Haste was a mana sink, and I found it less than effective at times. Without it, my SS Necro has had less energy issues (I found the Sab SS to have energy issues regularly unless things are constantly dying). This helps in startups, recoveries, and I found means that SS never sits unused.

Empathy is great, but the idea of the Mesmer was to shut things down. I'd actualy rather take away Epidemic (which I might try), for empathy.

I haven't been happy about Protective Spirit usage, I should probably check and see if there isn't another skill that could be used. Extinguish would fit nicely there outside of the SS Foul Feast necro. If those get swaped out for 2 RT heals, then Extinguish fits nicely onto the MM build. I'll think about possible alternitives and deal with them later.

The Mesmer is fantastic at shutting things down, and the hex removal is fantastic as well. As having played a Mesmer, meh builds on paper tend to have good results, but it's hard to judge. Tayloring the build to an area is not a bad idea. If caster light areas, a different interupt may be in order, or swap one out (Power Lock is probably the best candidate at that point).

And as for the synergy in team, Chthon makes a good point about the healer necro. The Mesmer has more synergy with Epidemic as well as covering the known Sab weaknesses (Interrupts and Hex Removal), while adding a new one instead (healing). Given healing is easier to pick up though Henchmen that is theoretically an edge to this build. However, the Rt healer is very, very good at making red bars go up....

Thanks for the feedback so far.

DarkSpirit · Apr 27, 2008, 03:53 PM // 15:53

I dont think [[Reckless Haste] is really needed for SS, only one of Sab's variants has Reckless Haste with SS. The other variant has SS without Reckless Haste too. I have tried SS without Reckless Haste and didnt notice much of a difference.

Anyway, I dont really like SS.

It is an overrated elite. I suggest replacing SS with [[Plague Signet], then replace [[plague sending] with [[Rip Enchantment]. That way, you have an enchantment removal in your build instead of none. Plague Signet wouldn't need sac and it extends the lengths of the conditions that you send across making it more offensive. Another more defensive option is to use a N/Mo for [[Martyr] and plague sending, which removes conditions from the whole team faster but doesn't extend the conditions that you send across.

One alternative to the mesmer, if you are a caster char, and you dont need an interrupter for the area, is to replace the mesmer with Antithesis's N/Rt:

[build prof=N/Rt sou=8+1+1 com=11 res=11][Weapon of Quickening][Shadowsong][Mend Body and Soul][Spirit Light][Protective Was Kaolai][Life][Signet of Lost Souls][Death Pact Signet][/build]

Coloneh · Apr 27, 2008, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Anyway, I dont really like SS.

It is an overrated elite. I suggest replacing SS with [[Plague Signet], then replace [[plague sending] with [[Rip Enchantment]. That way, you have an enchantment removal in your build instead of none. Plague Signet wouldn't need sac and it extends the lengths of the conditions that you send across making it more offensive. Another more defensive option is to use a N/Mo for [[Martyr] and plague sending, which removes conditions from the whole team faster but doesn't extend the conditions that you send across.

please explain how [Plague Signet] is more useful than [SS]... ever

SS might be overrated, but as far as PvE goes its the most damaging elite for a necro.

DarkSpirit · Apr 27, 2008, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

please explain how [Plague Signet] is more useful than [SS]... ever

SS might be overrated, but as far as PvE goes its the most damaging elite for a necro.

Because Plague Signet is 2-in-1, it is not just an offensive skill, it is also a defensive skill by removing your conditions.

SS is an ok elite, but I can always bring [[Pain Inverter] on any of my characters and kill any boss faster than using SS.

Coloneh · Apr 27, 2008, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Because Plague Signet is 2-in-1, it is not just an offensive skill, it is also a defensive skill by removing your conditions.

SS is an ok elite, but I can always bring [[Pain Inverter] on any of my characters and kill any boss faster than using SS.

do you really have that many conditions that you need to use your elite to get rid of them? and are they powerful enough to be worth putting on your foes?

pain inverter takes out 1 foe quick, but SS take out an entire group of mobs. plus this isnt a "one or the other" situation, you can take both.

DarkSpirit · Apr 27, 2008, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

do you really have that many conditions that you need to use your elite to get rid of them? and are they powerful enough to be worth putting on your foes?

pain inverter takes out 1 foe quick, but SS take out an entire group of mobs. plus this isnt a "one or the other" situation, you can take both.

I never said SS is a bad choice, but SS is just a good generic choice.

I still think that the Plague Signet/Foul Feast (or Martyr/Plague Sending) combo lends itself to better synergy with more possible team builds:

1) It gets rid of cracked armor from [[Aggressive Refrain] Paragons and sends it to your foes so you dont need weaken armor, in this setup and can use [[Rigor Mortis] instead.

2) If your main character is a caster, he can use [[Shadow Sanctuary] for hp regen and armor, and your hero can spread blindness to your foes too. If your main character is a necro, you can also use Shadow Sanctuary with [[Contagion], spread blindness to your foes, then let your hero remove it through Foul Feast/Plague Signet. Similarly for [[Signet of Midnight] builds for spreading blindness.

3) [[Headbutt] warriors can use this to spread the dazed condition

4) [[Wearying Strike] dervishes and [[wearying spear] paragons can synergize with it.

5) [[Verata's Sacrifice] MM can synergize with it

6) Even a [[Martyr] monk or a [[Cautery Signet] paragon can synergize with a Plague Signet/Foul Feast necro

These are just some possible synergies you can draw from a Plague Signet/Foul Feast combo versus a SS combo.

Bront · Apr 28, 2008, 12:28 AM // 00:28

I like the idea of Plague Signet as an alternative build to using Plague Sending. I like SS, but Mark of Pain already replicates some of the area shadow damage with the minions and other physicals, so it can be replaced. This also removes the health drop from Plague Sending, sends all conditions, and increases their length. It's not a bad idea.

I did a little bit of fooling around with this:
[build name="Bront's MM Bomber" prof=N/Mo Dea=12+3+1 Sou=8+1 Pro=10][Jagged Bones][Animate Bone Minions][Death Nova][Blood of the Master][Putrid Bile][Aegis][Extinguish][Signet of Lost Souls][/build]

[build name="Bront's SS Necro Feaster" prof=N/Rt Cur=11+1+1 Sou=10+1 Res=10][Spiteful Spirit][Mark of Pain][Enfeebling Blood][Foul Feast][Vengeful Weapon][Mend Body and Soul][Signet of Lost Souls][Death Pact Signet][/build]

[build name="Bront's Interupt Mesmer" prof=Me/Rt Dom=12+1+1 Fas=10+1 Ins=8+1][CoF][Power Lock][Power Spike][Power Drain][Hex Eater Signet][Empathy][Mantra of Recovery][Death Pact Signet][/build]

And this seemed to have better luck and survivability against physicals. I didn't test it in a condition heavy area though.

I'm thinking I might swap Power Lock out for [Leech Signet] or [Web of Disruption]. Both would add a whole skill interupt (not just spells), but at the cost of no more disable. Leech is cheep and recovers energy, but recharges slow. Web is more expensive, but might get a second interupt. Power spike does a lot of damage, which is quite useful, Power Drain is E-management, and Cry of Furstration already interupts any skill and offers area damage and interupts.

Another thought, instead of Epmathy, would be to add [Frustration] to the build, but I don't know how well the AI uses this skill. This again gears this against casters more than against general use.